The Game Rules on Rabbits Wiki Gyre

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[edit] Game Rules on this Wiki

I seriously disagree with presenting Icehouse game rules here on the Rabbit wiki, when there's already an IcehouseGames.org wiki. First, you create an "out of synch" possibility, where a game rule's are updated or refined there but not here. Second, you waste this wiki's storage space. Third, though knowing rules is important to being a Demo Rabbit, we should not be using this wiki to copy rules already presented at Wunderland, LooneyLabs, or IcehouseGames; that completely defeats the purpose of hypertext on the Internet.
—David Artman 08:32, 1 August 2007 (PDT)

The internet is for links. We should include *links* to Icehouse game rules here, as well as all other Looney Labs game rules, as a resource for Rabbits. -Rick Aug 28, 2007 3pm (PDT)
Yes, Rick, but the page to which I link above IS NOT A LINK PAGE (all caps is shouting). It is a (probably outdated) copy of the full rules. If it were just a stub page and a link-out, I wouldn't much care... and I'd also never use or see it, nor would most folks, until it's internally linked from a "comprehensive" list of games. Oh, and by the way... good luck keeping a synchronized, comprehensive list of links to Icehouse games here: there's at least two or three new ones weekly, lately; we're up to 186 IIRC.
Please let's keep the discussion on things I say; this is already becoming painful without my having to "argue" things I didn't even say. I suspect that you are unconsciously dragging the conversation below into this one, to no end other than confusion and frustration. As far as I'm concerned, linking out to IHG or WL or LL from here is fine--nay, of trivial concern at this stage--and the conversation below is, then, only about where and with what emphasis... but see my new proposals further below, in which I consider game links and demoing info to be just one class of "Resource" and not a top-level element, in my opinion. --David Artman 09:11, 29 August 2007 (PDT)
  • (Deep breath - you should have one too, they're good for you!) I am truly not trying to be antagonistic here, and getting the impression that you may be taking things personally. There's no need to ALL CAPS yell (I'm well aware of this, and other long-time internet conventions, thank you), nor be snide or snippy. I can understand that you may feel a bit of "ownership" here (though wikis are *community* tools, or we'd just have a website!), since you've put in a lot of great work, and constructive criticism is sometimes difficult to listen to... however, I truly do mean just to help the wiki be the best and most useful it can be. I don't know you, am not criticizing YOU, and am trying to communicate calmly and constructively. PLEASE read my comments in that "voice" when you read them, as that is how they are intended.
  • As to above, negating a negative should not infer a positive. I suggested (in support of my point below) that we should *link* to rules whenever a game is mentioned... not to suggest that you were not in favor of that very thing, but instead as an alternative to *reposting* the rules, which you already obviously are against. You see? We are in violent agreement here! No argument!
  • It would seem that our true difference of opinion lies in what the main focus of the wiki should be.
  • You appear (please correct me if I mis-state) to propose that the main goal above all others is to serve as a coordinator and report center for Rabbits to plan demos and report how they went. You seem to propose that other bits of info like game rules, or tips on how to give good demos, should be of secondary or lesser importance.
  • On the other hand, I propose that the Rabbit Wiki, since it serves both new and old... er, experienced Rabbits, should place emphasis on being the complete and well-rounded Rabbit Resource, providing all Rabbity information, but favoring first News (we agree!), then Game resources, as some Rabbits may not be as experienced with some games, and would like to grow to be more well-rounded Rabbits by learning other games, too. I believe that it should also provide all the scheuduley, planny, coordinatey goodness that you favor, but should not simply focus on those and treat the rest as incidentals.
  • Truly, I think for all the smoke and thunder, our difference of opinion basically comes down to which bits will be featured most prominently in descriptions and on the main page. In the end, I am certain that both types of information (and more!) will be served up by this wiki. I think choosing the specifics here for layout is an excellent decision to leave to Kristin. -Rick Aug 29, 2007 10:10am (PDT)

[edit] Individual Games Links on Level 1 Navigation (Main Page)

Rick began a stub section on the Main Page to list the LL games with sub-lists for specific pages about each game. I removed it, becasue it makes the main page scroll (when it should be serving as Level 1 navigation) and because the very first link on the page goes right to a list of games, from which all those sub-lists would cascade (i.e. a game page links out to its specific detail pages, which are in no way appropriate to Level 1 navigation). His private message to me in response is in bold below; and my counters are at the first indention level and signed.

I disagree that having a "The Games" section will be confusing, as the "Line of Products" link is buried in descriptive text, and certainly deserving of a section of its own... the games are what it's all about, after all! -Rick

Conversely, I would not want the high-level navigation main page to require scrolling; whatever is "below the fold" won't generally be paid any attention.
So... what's to be "below the fold" if your (huge!) additional navigation lines are included? Help is already too low, but it's visible. News it timely: must be first. Schedules is what this site REALLY is "all about," so it's got priority. And the Who's Who is our very organizing principle: the Rabbits... does we go below the fold? So... the game mega-list goes below the fold... and is never seen (nor is the FAR more critical Help, which it's obvious the average Rabbit needs BADLY).
Further, this site is NOT "all about" the games; it's a Rabbit coordinating, planning, and reporting site. The games are quite thoroughly documented at LooneyLabs--where there are easy links to buy them--and at IcehouseGames.org--which, even if we only addressed the "top games," would become a mess of synchronization. David Artman
  • I believe we have a basic misunderstanding here. I am not proposing that all this data just get chunked into the main page. You deleted my stub before I had a chance to flesh it out further and make my thoughts clear. I propose an even more streamlined front page than you have already. I propose treating the wiki's design much like that of any other well-designed website. Provide nav to basic sections along the left side, and under those sections (instead of dumped on the front page) elucidate the finer points, either via text, link to sub-wiki page, or link to page external to the wiki (as with rules, buying games, etc). This would thin out the front page even more than it is now, leaving the front page to be mostly an introduction to the site, and steering people to the proper sections of the site... you know, like a normal website!
  • (We can discuss the actual value/penalty of being "below the fold" separately, if you like... but suffice it to say that in my experience of building high-traffic professional websites, that *nobody* expects to fit their front page of any information-rich resource page completely "above the fold" (Go look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page))
  • Your last point is an interesting one, and may be splitting hairs, but I think is certainly worth discussing, as it goes to the basic idea of what the site is for. You propose that the site is basically for Rabbit coordinating, planning, and reporting. I would counter that the Rabbit Wiki (remember that wikis are best at being an interactive repository of knowledge) would be most useful as a resource for all the things Rabbits do best! A source of ideas and answers for those wanting to know how to demo the games, a resource for downloading demo aids to help when demoing at local retailers and cons, and finally, yes, a place to report and coordinate Rabbit efforts. Your description sounds like more of a shared message board and calendar, where I propose being a resource to also help those Rabbits who may only ever demo by themselves, and not even require coordinating or planning - just need a bit of help and suggestions on the best way to demo Looney Labs games. See the difference? I hope everyone would agree that both are useful and important. -Rick Aug 28, 2007 3pm (PDT)


Further, the "The Games" section is more than just a list of games... as I was saying, it should have links for each game with: * Demoing tips * Official Rules * Rules clarifications (errata) * Popular Rules Variants -Rick

In my opinion, this completely ruins the page flow. It would be one thing to pack a table of JUST game links there (note: game pages, here, already have all the stuff you would link as sub-pages on the main page). But to nest under each one the links to specific advice or variants or....
Dude, you realize do that's going to make the main page overwhelming--a section with, what, 30 or 40 links?!?--when it's supposed to drill the user straight to what they need at the moment? David Artman
  • See comment above - not 30-40 links. A link to a whole separate page, with short description text below, explaining this. -Rick Aug 28, 2007 3pm (PDT)

The links should go to the very same pages, so as not to duplicate, but should still go there. Sound reasonable? -Rick

As should be clear from the above, no, I do not think it's at all reasonable, from my experience with user interface design for web sites and applications. If someone wonders "What Looney Labs games" and doesn't figure out that they can click the very words that they are reading... well, that some person probably wouldn't figure out to scroll down the page to see the list and its sub-lists.
Heh... and this is exactly why I was trying to ping the Rabbits list to get some kind of Coalition of the Willing to sit down (virtually, via daily posting here) and make some basic navigation and structure decisions. I didn't want to just go ahead and build that fundamental stuff... becasue I knew I'd have to watch it like a hawk to keep it that way, unless others ratified it and could also help me watch it. And not an hour after my hours of work... a new section (stub, no less; not even taking the time to be functional) on the Level 1 navigation page. *sigh* --David Artman 14:12, 28 August 2007 (PDT)
  • To suggest that someone would be using the web and yet might still be "probably wouldn't figure out to scroll down the page to see the list and its sub-lists." is a bit silly, in my opinion. But again, your reply was in context of an imaginary design that I wasn't recommending at all... let's start over again, now that I've had a chance to actually explain what I intended.
  • I agree that some sort of consensus on need and use are good. But if nobody chimes in, it just needs to be done. Sometimes, it really *is* better to ask forgiveness than permission (as long as there's a good system to roll back changes!) -Rick Aug 28, 2007 3pm (PDT)


Rick, I think if you look at my Outline on Main Page Talk, you'll find that I have addressed every one of your beliefs, as was always intended. Your "negative of a negative" point made me laugh, given that you've done the same thing to me: Your belief that I wouldn't want demo support resources is inaccurate given that, in fact, it is my second priority behind planning, for this wiki.

Regarding prominence of various areas of the wiki, in Navigation: that is what a consensus is supposed to determine; our arguing back and forth about "what Rabbits want" is utterly foolish, compared to polling the Rabbits themselves--which I had done on the list and got a resounding "who cares?" in reply. As I am the only one answering "I do," I have taken the reins. And *I* feel that "experienced" Rabbits don't need rules and variations and errata--we know them like the backs of our hands--and what's more, *new* Rabbits probably don't need them either: they're holding them in their grubby little paws, learning the game(s)! So who needs them so badly that they warrant Lvl1 prominence more than, say, demoing resources and advice? Surely not Rabbits.

Now, given that my structure and priorities are nearly identical to those expressed by Kristin--as seen on the ToDo page and her own efforts to start a layout--all I'm really doing is cleaning up her design a bit and tightening up the page organization. At no time was "listing our products" a big deal, to Kristin, that I can tell. In the history of the Main page, "Line of Products" was originally linked as an afterthought in descriptive text about "What is a Rabbit," then it became a link near the bottom of the page prior to my moving it into the Welcome descriptive text... *dead center on the page, in 120% sized text*. And we are actually arguing about "prominence" when the link you want is the first on the page, dead center, in the second clause read by an arriving user.

Anyhow, she'll let us know what she things about this (somewhat minor) point and what she wants emphasized ion the Main Page and in Navigation. --David Artman 11:03, 29 August 2007 (PDT)

Again, I was NEVER proposing "listing individual games on level 1 navigation", but a link to a products section as a tool for demoing. This appears to have been lost in the hubbub. Let me instead demonstrate:

(On separate Games page)
  • Icehouse games (link to canonical Icehouse site)
  • Tips for demoing Icehouse-based games (linked page)
  • Resources for demoing Icehouse-based games (print-out badges, etc, etc) (linked page with list of resources)
  • Tips for demoing specific Icehouse games (linked page with list of individual games that may merit special demoing tips)
  • Fluxx games (linked page to with all Fluxx games and links from that page to game rules)
  • Tips for demoing Fluxx games (linked page)
  • Resources for demoing Fluxx games (promo cards, print out badges, etc, etc) (linked page with list of resources)
  • Tips for demoing specific Fluxx games (linked page with list of individual games that may merit special demoing tips)

-Rick Aug 29, 2007 1:45pm (PDT)

Ok, fine: I'll add Line of Products to the Main page outline concept, under Rabbit Resources. One link isn't worth my time to debate (I was objecting--incorrectly, fine--to a huge list of them, with sub-lists). David Artman 09:00, 31 August 2007 (PDT)

You are magnanimous, charitable, and visionary, and your willingness to entertain differing opinions is beyond words. Or something. The peasants will sing songs of your fairness for a few months, at least! I look forward to the rest of the wiki taking shape, and know that as stridently as you may have argued against a small but useful change, we both share the goal of creating the best Rabbit Wiki possible. --Rick Aug 31, 2007 10:30am (PDT)

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